Wednesday, February 3, 2010

Tanjore Marathis

Hello,

Our community of Tanjore or Thanjavur Marathis , also called Deshasthas, Madhwa Deshasthas or Smartha Deshasthas are a small diverse group.

We all speak Marathi and yet would not dare to speak in front of a maharashtrian or a Konkani! We can understand their language fully, yet they cannot understand ours!

Many of us shy away from declaring we are marathi speaking in front of a typical marathi speaking
group! Many of us also go about thinking we speak a "Koli Marathi" and are ashamed of our language.

All of us have experienced this typical question-answer scenario...

Question:" So where do you come from?" or " Which place do you belong to?"
Answer: " From Tamil Nadu" or "We belong to Bangalore"
Question: (asked with some amount of confusion) " How come you speak Marathi!?"

Now we really cannot go into Shivaji's step-brother's history, can we? So we murmur something
and rarely is the questioner interested enough to question us further and we thank our stars!

Our confusion about describing ourselves does not stop here! Then we have Marathis married to Kannada speaking people, who also call themselves Deshasthas! Where do these belong? Further we have Madhwa Deshasthas and Smartha Deshasthas! Phew! Not to forget the mutts we belong to!

Well! my blog here is to educate ourselves on where we come from carrying and shouldering a history of 500 years untarnished and make us feel proud about ourselves.

This is a first step to Belonging and Association!

50 comments:

  1. Hi Mausi!

    I wrote a similar note on my blog a couple of years ago coz I was so bored of repeating the history.

    Reposting here:

    Maharashtrians from Tamil Nadu
    For as long as I can remember, most people could never figure out how a Maharashtrian can originally be from Tamil Nadu. Especially one who doesn't speak the bombay-pune kind of marathi but a kind that is supposed to be a more conserved form of the same.
    I am such a person. I am a Maharashtrian, speak a different dialect of Marathi and, owing to my ancestry, speak Tamil as well.

    I have explained the history and origin of this to so many people, I lost count. The poor confused souls. I only hope they are not confused by the time I finish my explanation.

    Normally, such conversations flow something like this:
    Me: (saying something in Tamil to someone else)
    Confused Soul (CS): You are a tamilian, is it?
    Me: No.... (trying very hard to avoid the topic)
    CS: Oh. What do you speak at home, then? I thought you were a tamilian.
    Me: I'm a Maharashtrian (still trying to answer as shortly as possible to avoid explanations. But at this point, it becomes unavoidable. Read further)

    Scenario 1
    CS (if a maharashtrian, which happens too often): starts babbling in a marathi which I can barely understand
    Me: No no, I can't speak / understand bombay marathi.
    CS: Oh, then? (seriously confused by this time)

    Scenario 2
    CS (non-maharashtrian): Oh, is it?? You don't look like a maharashtrian. How come you speak tamil?

    And then I'm completely resigned to giving the explanation that I'm about to give you.
    Let's hope are are a few less people I will have to explain this to.
    Warning: This may sound like a history lesson!

    Venkoji (Maratha king Shivaji's half-brother) invaded Thajavur about 3 centuries ago. He ousted the Madurai Nayaks and crowned himself the first Maharaja of Tanjavur.
    There is also a version told by the preists of the Brihadeshwara (Shiva) Temple in Thajavur: Venkoji was asked to come to Thajavur to protect the Shiva Temple against the Madurai Nayaks who wanted to promote Vaishnavism.

    Anyway, a lot of Maharashtrians migrated with Venkoji at this time. My ancestors were probably one of them.
    Hence, we are the Maharashtrians from Tanjavur.
    The Marathi we speak is considered to be the more conserved form of Marathi - distance saving it from adultration by Urdu and other languages.
    I personally think it has a definite flavour of Tamil in it. (Edit: I may be wrong about that. Refer http://globejam.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/marathi-and-the-deshasthas/)

    From Wiki:
    Tanjore / Tanjavur Marathi, is a community language of Maharashtrians who migrated south, along with Shivaji's half brother Venkoji, to the areas surrounding the city of Thanjavur in India back in the 1600s. There are an estimated 100,000 people who speak the dialect today.
    The people's eventual assimilation into the Tamil community resulted in a unique culture which retains elements of both cultures and religious beliefs. Although members of this community have spread around the world today, the vast majority are still scattered throughout India with a concentration in and around Tamil Nadu.

    And that, my friends, is how there are Maharashtrians in Tamil Nadu and people who speak a different dialect of Marathi and Tamil as well.
    And I guess I'm rather proud that I speak a language only 99,999 other people know!! :)

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  2. the tanjore marathi has no urdu or hindi words. we speak a pure marathi though lately a few kanada and tamil words have creeped in due to the influence of staying in a tamil speaking state and kanada has come because some have been married to kanada speaking life partners, and english words are also being intraduced by the chidren.

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    Replies
    1. sorry to disagree,but Tanjavur Marathi has a lot of Farsi words and some Arabic words,but unfortunately,the Tanjavur Marathis,although use them,they do not know about those words....they THINK and BELIEVE ..those are pure Marathi words...

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    2. One of the reasons for this Arabic /Urdu influence in Thanjavur Marathi could be because Vyankoji and Shahji after all were connected to the Bijapur Sultan Adil Shah and one must remember that all the people surrounding them in court and otherwise may have been influenced in the language. Just a guess. However there is another word which we use in TM and which I have heard being used in Urdu.... CHIKKAT meaning sticky. They use it in the same context as we do!

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  3. There is a "Thanjavur Marathi Group" in the "Facebook".The membership (free) has risen to 450 and is expected to touch 1000 in the next few months. We discuss several topics of similar nature in the TMG.Please visit us and read the "Discussions" on various topics of common interest.One of our members Sri.Ananda Rao Vasisht has been working on a TM dictionary.You can see the work done by him so far on www.vishnughar.blogspot.com.We also send out a few words from SM (Standard or Pune Marathi)everyday and we call it "What's the good word" and many of the members put down what they think are the TM equivalents.

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  4. Hi Pratibha,

    Great job! Your blog makes a fascinating read! I am from one of the Thanjavur Marathi speaking deshastha families. My great grandfather lived in Nandyal and am not sure prior history to that. I guess they must have been from Thanjavur.

    We now live in Fremont CA, with my Mom in Hyd, India. My Sister's family also live in Hyd and Chennai. We all continue the tradition of speaking in Marathi and try not to corrupt as much as possible.

    Thanks and Regards,
    KM

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  5. i am also from madhwa desistha belongs to tanjore and now in chennai i want to joint hand with you please confirm any subscription to pay .


    awaiting reply to my mai id nalinikris@gmail.com

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  6. Hi, This is Ashish Chandorkar coming to Tamilnadu to cover assembly elections from Maharashtra Times. I am also planning to come Tanjavur. I would like to meet some eminent marathi peoles from Tanjavur and activities of Marathi Manoos.
    I would also like to meet Ancestors of Chatrapati Shivaji Maharaj's Brother Vyankoji. can you help me out?

    Ashish
    9423016855

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  7. @KM..Thank you for your kind comments. I live in New Jersey and I am passionate about our language and never cease to wonder at our history!

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  8. Mangesh Sir DeshpandeOctober 21, 2011 at 5:44 AM

    I wish to inform all your intelligent readers that URDU has not a single word of its own.All the words are derived from Sanskrit,Hindosthani/Hindi/and dialects of Hindi; / Farsi/ and for religious words Arabic.Dakshini [ deccan/southern Urdu that is spoken in Maharashtra,Andhra and Karnataka has a lot of Marathi,some Telugu and Kannada words.So pl.DO NOT say URDU words,but if one does not know the origin,one may call it non-Marathi words.one more v.imp.info.:- Not only your dialect,but Marathi guys who migrated to Maurisious also retained the words ,we spoke in the 18th century.But the prize goes to the guys from GOA/KARWAR/MANGALORE/COCHI who migrated from Maharashtra during JNYANESHWAR`s time have RETAINED the words of the 13th century MARATHI,which even a scholar cannot understand in PUNE/MUMBAI.

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    Replies
    1. Mangesh SirDeshpande, Where are you, We are missing your valuable addition on our blog!

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  9. Hi Pratibha,
    I am a TMD (as you call it) and really enjoyed reading this blog. You are doing a commendable job with this blog. The current and future generations of Tanjore marathis (both Deshastha and Smartha) are indebted to you for reminding the beauty of our heritage. I started my blog and the initial post was about my roots. You can read more here: http://ragothaman.blogspot.com/2008/03/ibncd-indian-born-not-so-confused-desi.html Everytime someone asks me what and who am I, I also give a lecture starting from Shivaji and to current family origins. This is what I wrote in my blog. In any case, please keep posting interesting stuff like this since I have already added your blog to my list of subscriptions. My only worry was that our delicate heritage would be lost soon with kids not getting to know from their parents, but after looking at your blog my worries have become less.
    Thanks and Regards,
    Ragothaman

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  10. Hi, does the term "Thanjavur Marathi Deshastha" refer to a brahmin community? because i am a brahmin ,but i dont speak marathi. i was just reading about all brahmin communities in india. so just wanted to know as it is interesting .

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  11. Hi,
    I found your blog totally fascinating. I would love to see this tradition of the older subgroup of marathi deshastha culture preserved. Are actions being taken to record oral history and language?

    I happen to be a Puneri marathi who is married to a Madurai born tamilian ... so nice mix of cultures and history on your blog! :)

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  12. Thank you all.
    Answer to Anonymous(1)...A lot of brahmin Marathi Deshesthas came along with Vyankoji to Thanjavur. We are descendants of these Marathi Deshesthas, and as History speaks for itself, we became alienated from the Maratha Kingdom and survived as a Brahmin Marathi Deshestha Race in Thanjavur in the heart of Tamil Nadu.

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  13. I chanced upon this blog spot. I am also a TMDB, but married to a konkani Gowd Saraswat Brahmin and have faced the same difficulties about my identity as described by all above. It definitely feels better that I am not alone in this predicament. Well, I wish all our community members all the best.
    - Deepika Kamath nee Jayanthi d/o Subba Rao Devarath of Cumbainallur family, settled at Bangalore.

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  14. hi.
    I am a TMBD too and married to a Konkani Gowd Saraswat Brahmin. My dad Late Subba Rao Devarath was from the Cumbainallur family. He and his siblings settled in Bangalore. I wish all other members of the community all the very best.

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  15. Thank you Deepika and welcome to my blog.

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  16. GowriShankar PatankarAugust 14, 2013 at 2:35 AM

    Hi All! I am so happy that I Chance up on this Website.We Belong to the TMD group,My family dates back to era where dewans where appointed across South India on behalf of Tanjore Maratha Kingdom.One such person is Dewan Madhav Rao,for Banglore. He has a Road named after him in Bangalore.And my Mom's father is an eminent Mridangam Vidwam Late Swaminatha Rao.

    I brifed this family history cos I want to get connected to lot more people directly or indirectly related to our family,and strangly our family name is "Patankar".

    The above information where the one received orally from family elders so please do not mistake me if there are any mis interpretations.

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  17. Welcome to my blog, GowriShankar Patankar and Unknown.
    Hope someone who reads this blog will find a connection, after all connections make us so much more stronger!

    @Unknown.. Thank you. Yes, my motive in writing this blog is for us to proudly say, "Yes! I am a Thanjavur Marathi!"

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  18. Is there a tanjore Marathi speaking madhwa group in New Jersey area, I know there is a big group in Fremont, California, I am trying to find if there is one here in NJ

    Regards,
    Rajesh

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  19. It will be nice to organize a Tanjore Marathi Madhwa get together in NJ.
    Anu Rao.

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  20. It will nice to have a Tanjore Marathi Madhwa get together in NJ.

    Anu Rao

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  21. I have a question regarding the Madhwa / Smartha split in TMDBs. Did this come along with the migration to Thanjavur, or was there a later adoption of Madhwa philosophy by some TMDBs? Are there Madhwa Deshasthas in Maharashtra...most of them appear to be Smarthas. Grateful for any information.

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  22. I am happy to see such groups online, and I need help from any one here. My mother tongue is marathi, coming from Kolhapur. I am on assignment in health sector under Sugha Vazua in Thanjavur, and it would be of greaf help if any one could give me idea about the city and give contact to find a sutiable accommodation in Thanjavur.
    Thanks in advance

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  23. interesting i have relatives who are Tanjore Deshastha Brahmins . On my father`s side they spoke ALE Marati !

    my mothers ancestors spoke kannada Marati Kannada has sanskrit hindi and even urdu words all Madhva Deshastha Brahmins at that and all belong to Uttaradhi Mutt [ one of my ancestor was swami whose Samadhi Mantap is to be found Opp Mysore Palace

    All this refects history of this particular group since Vijayanagar Times

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  24. All are requested to read Marathi literature, so that all will feel close to Marathi people

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  25. I am Anil Rao from Pune.My grandfather Bhuvraha Rao was staying in Kumbhakonam near Adi Kambareswar Temple.My grand mother's brother Bheem Rao brought original mruttika of Raghavendraswamy and established math in Kumbhakonam.Our surname was different.If we come to know the same we can find out from which place in Maharashtra we migrated.Our deity is Lord Venkateswara of Tirupati but it is said that we do not have family goddess.

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  26. hi am Balaji fm Salem. Its very happy to see our people to see through web. keep it up.

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  27. hi am Balaji fm salem. myself belongs to Madhwa dhesistha. its very nice to see our people through Web.

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  28. Hi my name is Anand Rao son of M.Subba rao grandson G.Mahadeva Rao gerat grandson of Govinda Rao of thanjavur marathi. Now settled jn Hyderabad. Can anyone suggest what is our caste my grandfather had janjanàm and he said we are kshatriyas. my parents speak marathi but we speak Tamil at home. My mail id anandrao24x7xgmail.com

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  29. Interesting to see that there is a group for our own traditions and culture. But really disappointed to note that it is almost a year since there was a message last.

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  30. I am Vishal Kokate from Maharashtra got admission at IIT Madras. I am really fascinated by the way you have preserved golden culture of Marathi here in Tamil. There should be frequent interaction of Maharashtra & Marathi people who stay in Tamil.

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  31. Ramesh MangalvedekarJuly 30, 2017 at 7:38 AM

    How to officially get registered as Thanjavur Maharashtrians.. ? Please Help...

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  32. Very nice to see the blog and also to know so much about our community. I also belong to TMD community and would love to get info about this.

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  33. I'm only trying to trace my ancestry. All I know is I'm Deshastha Madhwa Brahmin. My ancestors lived in Thanjavur dist. They were land owners. May be one day I'll go there and check the land records to see. Hope they still have that old records. Thanks for creating this blog.

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  34. Dear Anand Rao
    Many people of non-brahmins who's mother tongue is marathi living in thanjavur. there are known as marattas. They are speaking very good marathi. the younger generation is not like their parents. they are speaking only tamil. they belongs to obc in tamilnadu and bc in central government

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  35. Hi everyone, I have been going through some books on Thanjavur Marathi. I appreciate the efforts taken by the group and would like to state here that there should not be any hesitancy or one should not feel reluctant in speaking Thanjavur Marathi. The entire Marathi speaking world appreciate you for maintaining the culture and most important Speaking Marathi.

    B A Rajgolkar
    Asst Master in English
    Sainik School Kodagu
    Karnataka
    571232

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  36. To this trail I want to add my great great grandfather was Parsi RajaRao who was with some diwan at Chennai I don't know his name, he used to translate Parsi to Tamil. He was a astrologer as well. My husband's grandmother was from Rao Bahadur family of Chidambaram details unavailable as no one from family are in touch. My daughter has fun telling her friends about ancestry and her close friends who already know the story just run away leaving behind innocent CS who discovers afterwards why they ran away in the first place😁

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  37. Very nice chain..feel happy that there are several more people who have faced the same predicament as me.. we are currently resident in Bangalore with family in AP and TN.. As a result of childhood spent in MH, I speak both TM and Pune Marathi.. with regard to acceptance from regular Maharashtrians - when we were in Pune, people mostly assumed we speak Konkani ! 2 instances I remember - in '94 once I had a certain Joshi visiting me at work (in Chennai) when I took a call from my cousin over ph & this person was so delighted listening to Marathi however odd it seemed to him & complimented us on retaining the language.. Many years later in Bangalore another guy; also happened to be a Joshi; when he heard of my origins- remarked - You are not Maharashtrian!! I could only reply back - "I am not claiming to be 1!" - Life is never black and white - took me a long time to realize (Sigh)

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  38. hi,
    I am from Pune and a tour operator. I am bringing a group of Marathi people to Tanjore for sightseeing. It would be great if someone from your group can help us in this. my email id is goaroound@gmail.com

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  39. Are there any Tanjavur marathi groups in Virigina/Maryland/Washington DC? I would like to meet a few people , I stay in Herndon, Virginia

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    Replies
    1. There are quite a few Tanjavur people down East Coast

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  40. Great to see this thread continuing even after 10 years

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  41. Hi, I am Gopalakrishna Rao, a madhwa brahmin hailing from Vellore, Tamil nadu. Trying to find out our history, same CS, Even my children are confused, who are we? born in TN but speak Marathi at home. Had to give them story of Shivaji-Venkoji, now they are happy to call themselves Maharashtrians rather than Tamilian.

    My father's name is Arcot narayan Lakshmana Rao, trying to find out the lineage, we lived in Arni, near Vellore. Had to develop a network of our people to find out who is from where, it would be interesting.

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  42. Namaskaar,

    Tumhaala Agyaalin Namaskaar. Majha naav Srinivas Prakash Rao. Majha Vadeelach naav Shri Ramachandra Rao. Amcha gaavach naav Kumbakonam. Te kaalanth, amcha purvaja Kumbakonam aanth, Shri Vijayeendra Swami Brindavan javal asath hothe.

    I am a TMD residing in the US, new to this group and found it through google while trying to search for info on TMD heritage. My Father is from Kumbakonam.

    Thank you to everyone for forming this group and keeping it lively with so many posts. It is truly enriching.

    The most famous personality and the torch-bearer/Leader of the TMD Community would certainly be Shri Guru Raghavendra Swami of Mantralayam because prior to becoming a Saint, HE was born into a family that spoke Thanjavur Marathi. Wow think about it for a minute, HE actually spoke our Thanjavur Marathi.

    Superb, what more validation & certification do we need for the TMD Community & the TM Language !

    Having the backing of such a great Saint & Leader in our midst, we don't have to feel embarassed while speaking our Thanjavur Marathi in front of anyone !

    Namaskaar/Regards
    Srinivas Prakash Rao

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  43. Do we have our community facebook account

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